Kevin Rudd details diplomatic efforts to free Julian Assange: ABC News
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
David Speers
So you did play a pivotal role in achieving this outcome. What can you tell us about how it came about?
Kevin Rudd
Well, David, I played one role among many. The good thing about the Australian foreign service is that they are a disciplined crew and they work well together. And the truth is, doesn't matter how good your diplomatic team is, you need prime ministerial authorisation, prime ministerial direction, and, frankly, a clear prime ministerial mandate to engage the US system at a level of seniority which would make a difference. And that's what made this possible.
David Speers
It also required the US Justice Department to agree to look at a deal. When did that start to come into the picture? And did the Justice Department take much convincing?
Kevin Rudd
Well, the Prime Minister raised these matters with President Biden very early in his period in office and was persistent in doing so. I've been in the post, you know, for a little more than a year. My job, assigned to me by our PM, was to engage with Mr Assange's lawyers, to engage with the Department of Justice, to work out what their ultimate positions were, and then to encourage them to the point that they could actually get together and to begin to work out alternatives for the future. Either you take this extraordinarily complex legal case through to its conclusion, with appeal after appeal after appeal after appeal, or you strike a bargain with a plea bargain.
David Speers
Just explain how it works. I mean, how independent is the Justice Department? How open are they to persuasion from the likes of an Australian Ambassador?
Kevin Rudd
Well, ultimately, Mr Assange's legal interests are represented by his legal counsel, and you've seen them in action recent days. And -
David Speers
So you were just bringing them together?
Kevin Rudd
Bringing them together and separately, quietly, discussing possible landing points.
David Speers
But is pointing out Australia's view on this influential? Does that matter to the Justice Department?
Kevin Rudd
Remember, at the end of the day, the Department of Justice obviously operates under its own procedures. It's also part of the executive arm of the United States government. And it therefore has a significant relationship with Australia across a whole wide range of law enforcement matters before you go to our defense and security intelligence relationship as well. The key thing was, as the Prime Minister had said, given the particular prominence of this case was it had gone on for far too long. And therefore, what was the best means by which this could be brought to a close? So engaging the interlocutors at the international division of the Department of Justice who are there for that purpose, to engage foreign governments, and with the legal team, and to apply a bit of creative nous about how we could find a way through this?
David Speers
Well, let's talk about the creative nous. Whose idea was it to go through Saipan to have this dealt with at a fairly remote outpost for a Federal Court judge?
Kevin Rudd
Well, these are discretionary matters for the Department of Justice, but the question of the appropriateness of the jurisdiction, that is that place as opposed to other district courts within the United States legal system, would have to be agreed to also by Mr Assange's lawyers, so a landing point was reached - pardon the pun -
David Speers
But was it was it was it your idea?
Kevin Rudd
No, it certainly didn't come from the Australian government. It was developed in consultation between the two parties. Our job was to facilitate.
David Speers
Did the Assange team take some convincing to agree to a guilty plea?
Kevin Rudd
Why did you have to be there with him on the on the journey?
Kevin Rudd
Well, that's a matter you need to put to them. I don't wish to be providing public commentary on their private legal deliberations. You'd expect, David, that when you're dealing with complex legal matters, that there would be a range of views. But again, if you stand back from the detail, what's ultimately the decision about? Do you allow this court case to go from extradition to substantive deliberation to appeal in the United States, to further appeal in the United States, with ultimately a Supreme Court case on the future of the First Amendment and the application of the First Amendment's principles on freedom and freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom of the press? And does that apply to foreigners acting in a capacity like Mr Assange? Or do you cut a deal through a plea bargain? And that is constantly, with the binary choices we face, and working that through sensitively the system, not intruding into the autonomy of the parties, was what I think any professional diplomat would do.
Kevin Rudd
Well, the truth of the matter is, number one, I had been the principal point of contact with the Department of Justice kind of from the get-go, and with Mr Assange's lawyers?
David Speers
So you were the linchpin?
Kevin Rudd
That's your term, not mine. The political linchpin to make this whole thing work was a Prime Minister who decided to actually make this a prominent issue in the United States.
David Speers
You were dealing with both the Assange team and the Department of Justice trying to shepherd this whole deal through?
Kevin Rudd
Well, they got to a point where they could themselves identify a way through. As I said, our job was to constantly define clearly the alternatives. And our view, as a government -- and I was in constant reference with the PM and Foreign Minister and others on this subject -- was this dragging on forever through this rolling set of appeals and with Mr Assange, frankly, looking at the prospect of being in incarceration for a very long period of time and no resolution of the case whatsoever. The alternative was plainly the way to go.
David Speers
It sounds like you were encouraging him to take the deal.
Kevin Rudd
You could say that. I couldn't possibly comment. But the bottom line is, this was a decision for the parties.
David Speers
Right. You spent a fair bit of time on the flight home with him. Did you have a good chat?
Kevin Rudd
Well, on an aircraft such as that, you're not going to sit quietly in the corner and do the cryptic crossword. And besides, I've always hated cryptic crosswords because I can't get all the answers right.
David Speers
So what did you talk about?
Kevin Rudd
That's a matter for you to ask Mr Assange at some stage. Certainly, we reflected on his time in prison because you can't ignore the elephant in the room. Here's a man who has been in incarceration at a maximum-security prison in the United Kingdom for five years with a whole bunch of pretty interesting types. And then prior to that in, if you like, self-incarceration in the Ecuadorian Embassy for a period of, what, more than five years?
David Speers
And touching down here must have been an emotional moment.
Kevin Rudd
Well, my interest as a diplomat and certainly as the Ambassador to the United States was to take this out of being a continuing problem in Australia-US relations for the very long term. And so what was I relieved about and what were foreign policy professionals concerned about is frankly having this method dealt with. Obviously delighted to see as a human being, families reunited, as I've been delighted to see with other Australians in distressed circumstances around the world. As the PM said yesterday and Foreign Minister as well, our job is to go out there and look after Australians to the greatest extent we can, which is why the PM got Cheng Lei back. That's why through the agency of the Foreign Minister and the PM, we also got Sean Turnell back from Myanmar. This is hard work and there's no precise science here, but it matters for all Australians, because you don't know when you're going to end up in a pickle.
David Speers
On this case, I think you just said it was a problem in the relationship. How much of a problem?
Kevin Rudd
What I said is, I didn't want it to become a long-term irritant in the relationship.
David Speers
Was it an irritant?
Kevin Rudd
Well, if, ultimately, political relationships between countries are the aggregation of the interests and values and perceptions in both countries. Australia in the United States, because I've lived there, as you know, a long time now, since I left politics in this country, more or less, has a good brand. The United States by and large, has a pretty good brand in Australia as well. The key thing is not to allow any particular issue to become defining for a very large group of people within either country, which causes the underpinnings of our long-term alliance to come into question at any point in the future. I'm a huge believer in the alliance, as you know, we've discussed this over donkey's years. I'm a huge believer in the security relationship with the United States and the political relationship, and that's what I spend the vast bulk of my time on. And so, I did not want this personally, nor did our government, having discussed it with ministers, to become a long-term irritant. And that was the view also put to me by this multi-party delegation led by Barnaby Joyce and the rest when they came.
David Speers
What about Julian Assange's actions? As foreign minister, and then when you came back as prime minister, you didn't go out of your way to see him return home. I think he would have been in the Ecuadorian Embassy during those years.
Kevin Rudd
Well, as you know, the legal circumstance at the time was that he was under charge from the Swedes. That matter had not yet been reached to determination.
David Speers
He's still an Australian citizen.
Kevin Rudd
Yeah, but if you go back on your records, mate, when yours truly was in office, I was constantly defending this guy's rights to consular protection. I was constantly defending his right to retain an Australian passport, these basic things, and that's because I just saw him in the same category as I see any other Australian.
David Speers
Do you see him as a journalist?
Kevin Rudd
That is a matter of opinion.
David Speers
What's yours?
Kevin Rudd
What's yours? You're a journalist.
David Speers
I'll ask the questions.
Kevin Rudd
But I'm not a journalist. I'm interested in yours.
David Speers
I'm here to ask the questions.
Kevin Rudd
That's true. But you know what I mean is that where this would have got particularly interesting is if it actually went to the testing of the First Amendment provisions under the United States Constitution, which is about freedom of the press, would the justices on the Supreme Court of the United States have deemed this individual to be a journalist or not? We don't know. My view is that that's a matter for the courts to determine.
David Speers
I've got to let you go but, just before I do, back to the other part of your job right now with the presidential debate getting underway. How are you going as Ambassador building inroads, relationships with the Trump circle? We know he had some disparaging remarks about you not so long ago. Are things being patched up there? How's that going?
Kevin Rudd
He's not Robinson Crusoe on that, mate. We're in Parliament House, Canberra. A lot of people have had disparaging things say about me over the years; that's just life in the fast lane. No, you'd understand and accept and expect of us, or whoever is Ambassador in Washington, you're constantly building relationships with both sides, Democrats and Republicans, why? It's a huge country, biggest economy in the world, massively significant to us. And so whoever the American people vote for we've got to have decent relationships. So certainly, on the Republican side in the national security space, in the defense space, in the foreign policy space, in the trade policy space, in the economic space, we are now and have been ever since I arrived fully engaged with Team Trump, whoever he will choose to become members of his administration if the American people vote for him. At the same time we do the same with what could be a second Biden Administration. That's the job.