Kevin Rudd talks AUKUS with Hugh Hewitt
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
INTERVIEW WITH HUGH HEWITT
SALEM RADIO NETWORK
3 APRIL 2024
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Hugh Hewitt
Welcome back. Good morning, welcome. Good to have you. I'm talking now with Ambassador Kevin Rudd, he’s the Australian Ambassador to the United States, former Prime Minister of Australia and not once but twice. And he's living the best life. I'm really jealous of you Ambassador Rudd. Because after you got done with politics, you went off to Oxford and got a PhD from Jesus College. I want that life, I want someone to let me free and go to write a thesis on Xi Jinping's Marxist ideology. That was it, wasn't it?
Ambassador Rudd
That’s right. So what you’ve got to do, Hugh, is just fill out the form. Say, “Vice Chancellor, Oxford University – I’m Hugh Hewitt. Jesus College, please”. That's all I did.
Hugh Hewitt
You know, I think it kind of helps to be the former Prime Minister of Australia. I heard you talk once – I was up at the Committee of 100 in New York a few years ago. I was very impressed with your realism about the CCP. And I want to come back and talk about AUKUS in a minute, or AB Culvahouse will be yelling at me for the next couple of years. But tell me a little bit about how you decided to study Xi’s thought and policy at Oxford?
Ambassador Rudd
Well, I've been studying Chinese language and history kind of most of my life since I went to university, way back in the Mesolithic period. And after I had spent a lot of time in office in Australia, and had left office and started running a think tank in New York – which is probably where we caught up when I was President at the Asia Society – everyone kept asking me this question, “What is Xi Jinping doing in the world? And more importantly, why is he doing it?” And so that caused me to think, well, what is the actual ideological worldview that he is actually representing and to dig deep into Marxism, Leninism, and, frankly, Chinese nationalism, and to look at how he's changed that within China over the last 10 years compared with the earlier era of Deng Xiaoping, Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao. So that's why I did it and took me five years. My hair started turning gray and then white, and then I eventually finished it. I hope to publish it by the way in September this year.
Hugh Hewitt
I'm looking forward to reading it because there was a period of time, I'm sure you read them, when first Vice President Pence then FBI Director Wray, then Attorney General Barr, then National Security O'Brien and then Secretary of State Pompeo gave speeches about what the ideological intent of China was. Now Dr. Kissinger I saw on that same trip – I met you up in his office – always swore that China would never invade another country, putting aside Taiwan. Do you agree with him that their history and tradition is non-expansionist beyond their borders?
Ambassador Rudd
Depends what period of history we're talking about, Hugh. If you went back to the Qing Dynasty, between the 17th century and frankly, the end of the 19th, early 20th century, look at the map of China, it changed a lot. It expanded west and to some extent north. Of course then, after the founding of the People's Republic in 1949, you had a direct Chinese military action into Korea to support the North Korean regime of Kim Il Sung. By and large since then, however, the Chinese have not articulated any interest in invading other countries. What they are concerned about, however, is this: to reclaim what they see to be their lost territories in the South China Sea, in the East China Sea, and of course, Taiwan – and for our friends in India, a huge slice of northern India, which adjoins China's land boundary with India, in the Himalayas.
Hugh Hewitt
Here's where the rubber meets the road. Do they want back what Russia stole from them in the north, in Siberia? Because that was Chinese territory at one point and then Russia took it. Do they want that back?
Ambassador Rudd
Well, here you ask. I think one of the most sensitive questions in China-Russia relations. Of course, you're absolutely right – back in the 1860s and 1870s, talking about the Qing Dynasty, when the Empire got weak back then, guess who came a-knockin’? It was the Russians under the then Tsar who said, we'll have this big slice, thank you very much, and then the Chinese signed it off under a treaty. Up until now, the Chinese have been very quiet about this. They've been much noisier about their unequal treaties with the rest of the world, including with the United Kingdom over Hong Kong, with Portugal over Macau. But this one has been missing from the commentary.
My own theory of the case is this: if China succeeds with its other territorial exercises in South China Sea, and over Taiwan, in the East China Sea and with India, I cannot for the life of me think that this unresolved question for many Chinese – that is the lost northern territories – will just be left alone. In fact, here is an interesting tidbit: when, from time to time, people in Chinese social media, called Weibo, have erupted and said, “What about our territory with the Russians?”, the Chinese propaganda apparatus shut it down straight away. In other words, the message very much to the Chinese people is, “Not yet, thank you very much”.
Hugh Hewitt
Not yet! I want to remind everyone about that they are not natural allies. And so now Ambassador Rudd – AB [Culvahouse], I do see AB every few months when I go downtown, and he always preached to me on AUKUS. And it's always the same: the United States is screwing up our commitments to Australia. Now you're a diplomat, and you're a former prime minister, so you won't say that, but tell us how AUKUS is going and maybe explain for the Steelers fans out there what AUKUS is. I've tried a few times, but you're probably better at it than I am.
Ambassador Rudd
Well, I wouldn't say that you, you're a professional broadcaster, and I'm just a guy currently wearing a diplomat’s uniform. But it's kind of like this. Number one, AUKUS stands for Australia, UK, US and it's a defense agreement. And it's about the long-term co-development of new generation defense technology and equipment, and to do that in a way which creates a more seamless industry between our three great democracies. And frankly, given the long history of our respective alliances – in fact, Australia and the UK are probably among America's closest and longest standing allies in the world.
Number two, what it actually contains is this: the partners, including the US, will assist Australia in acquiring and then building a fleet of nuclear-powered attack submarines for the first time in our history. That is going to be good for allied security the Indo-Pacific because you'll add an additional flotilla of Australian boats. Secondly, it's also a good deal for America, because we're going to be spending tens of billions of dollars initially buying three to five Virginia class vessels from the US, starting in around about 2030. Secondly, we have also as a result of that game enhanced the allied nuclear attack submarine fleet within the Indo-Pacific. And on top of that, we're going to be investing a huge amount and American jobs and industry about $3 billion or more – on top of the purchase price, by the way – into the US submarine industrial base: more jobs for Americans, more industry in America and good for Australia as well.
Hugh Hewitt
So, Mr. Ambassador, and by the way, do we call you Mr. Ambassador or Mr. Prime Minister, because you were prime minister, and now you’re ambassador? I'll go with Ambassador but your protocol people can call me later.
Ambassador Rudd
Just call me Kevin – that’s fine, I’m okay.
Hugh Hewitt
I don't think we're ever going to catch up on this because we are so far behind in our capacity in submarine shipyards: are we actually building shipyards in Australia where the Virginia class can be constructed and the nuclear technology installed? Otherwise, we're never going to catch up because we're just so far behind on our own need.
Ambassador Rudd
Well, you're absolutely right to raise this, Hugh. And we've looked at this very carefully in terms of the capabilities at Huntington Ingalls, which is in Virginia, and Electric Boat which is up there in Connecticut, and they’re the two manufacturing plants for American nuclear-powered vessels now. You're right, the throughput of those two yards has gone down over the years, over a long period of time, after, frankly, the collapse of the Soviet Union, and now they're very slowly rebuilding. But when I look at the numbers – and we've done a big careful study of this, because we're spending our money on this – there is already evidence of a full set of apprenticeship schools now emerging in Newport News, and in Groton, Connecticut. We see the increased throughput of boats going from only one per year to an average of 1.3, 1.4 per year.
So we have some confidence that, when you throw in the additional American investment and our $3 billion as Australia into the base, that by the time you get to 2028, 2029, we should be back in the territory producing two boats a year and perhaps even earlier.
To the other part of your question in Australia, we're also building in Adelaide a new shipbuilding capability which will produce our own AUKUS Class nuclear attack submarines that will come on stream. That comes on a little later. So what we’ll end up having by the time we're into the 2030s – which I could describe as the Decade of Living Dangerously in terms of the Indo-Pacific – we're going to have an additional nuclear-powered boat building facility in the world. Currently, there are only three: two in the US one in the UK up in Scotland. You're going to have a fourth one, which will now be in Adelaide in South Australia. On top of that, we're upgrading our naval base in Fremantle in Western Australia, just south of Perth, and that's going to be able to accommodate many more of the needs of US nuclear attack submarines when they're in the region, and on top of that, we're going to have also maintenance and repair facilities for your boats and for ours in the region. So, the geography of Australia helps the Allied strategic interest on this as well.
Hugh Hewitt
Oh, that's fabulous. I follow shipbuilding fairly closely. I got a son and son-in-law [inaudible] on active duty in the Navy and I'm reading this new book, Rickover Uncensored, we're all in debt to this guy, man, everybody in the free world. I mean, he was a pain in the neck to work for or with. But boy, do we owe him a lot. So let me ask you the last question, which is about New Zealand. They just changed government. They're part of Five Eyes. Do you notice the change from what was a significantly your sort of center left? They're very they were very left. Now they're kind of right wing. Has anything changed among the Five Eyes alliance with the change of government in New Zealand?
Ambassador Rudd
By the way, a quick endorsement of Rickover. I've been down to nuclear reactors and I have seen the work and legacy of Rickover. We owe an enormous debt of gratitude to Admiral Rickover. Whether he was a pain or not, you know this guy actually transformed American and allied national security. We all owe him a debt of gratitude – New Zealand, and we in Australia. We see ourselves as a center-left government and always long-standing supporters of the US Alliance back to the earliest days, the darkest days of World War Two when my father was in uniform, with American GIs in the Pacific fighting together against Japan. The view in New Zealand, I think, is evolving. There's a greater realism now in New Zealand about the challenges that they face. So with the new government has just been elected, I have noticed on a number of questions now – whether it's to do with China, or whether it's to do with the rest of the geopolitical challenges we face in the region – New Zealand is now much more forward-leaning, and the Australian Government is working very closely with their new counterparts across the Tasman Sea.
So it's good they’re in the Five Eyes, and in the Pacific Island countries. Hugh, it’s worthwhile thinking about this – where China has been making such a push into Melanesia, Micronesia and Polynesia – our New Zealand friends, together with Australia, are the biggest long-standing presences in the neighborhood. We Australians have embassies in all 15 island countries, we’re the only country to have them, and New Zealand is right up there with us. So we are therefore at the forefront of, frankly, the combined pushback in the Pacific Island countries, which, as a student of the war, you will know were fundamental during World War Two.
Hugh Hewitt
Absolutely. My pal Ambassador O'Brien, my old law partner, never lets me go without telling me we're not paying enough attention to all of the Pacific Islands. Ambassador Rudd, it is great to talk to you in person. I hope you will keep coming back too because you're really smart. And we appreciate that. And especially as a former prime minister, we don't get many of those around here. So keep coming back and I'll bump into you downtown sometime. Thank you, Ambassador Kevin Rudd.